An Agent's Response
I initially started this blog as a diary for myself, to put down on electronic paper my journey from the beginning of a book to its end. Only second have I thought it being a resource for beginning writers trying to break into the industry, and lastly third I wanted it to possibly be the beginning of a marketing platform for potential book sales down the road -- if I am so lucky.
This post kind of hits on the second one: a means of helping people understand the industry better along with the practice of writing. And this post is a cautionary tale for those of you who will be jumping into querying agents in the future.
I received word back from Ralph Vicinanza, the agent for Terry Pratchett, Robert Jordan, Robert J. Sawyer, Robin Hobb, among others, as well as Stephen King's foreign rights agent. He asked for the first four chapters of my book, The Dark Thorn, and I sent them to him a few weeks ago.
Today he wrote:
Now, I am thrilled with Ralph's response—not from what he wrote but more with how quickly he got back to me. He took time out of his busy schedule to read little ole' me's first four chapters and that means a lot. Agents like Ralph have a massive workload, and I thank him up and down, left and right, for reading my excerpts and reading them in the time he promised.
I share his note with you, not out of vanity because I am self-actualized enough that I don't discern happiness through other people, but because you should get to see what an agent writes back to a writer. Most of the responses I have received from agents have been like this one -- both the good aspects of the writing accompanied with the areas of development needed.
With that said and after a quick read, you'd think I have a great shot at getting an agent, right? Well, remember what I just said in the previous paragraph? I've received notes like Ralph's before. Many times. Sure, it was a different book and I've improved a lot since I wrote Fell Hammer, but all of those replies were similar. Do I have an agent right now, even after such positive words from other agents? No, I don't. This note from Ralph could be one more in a string of them.
Is that fatalistic? Not really, at least I don't think so. It is realistic. It's great getting excited about such compliments but not great when they don't bloom into fruition. It took me about three rejections to overcome the feeling of being rejected; for some people they never get over the response to receiving a rejection. I've since embraced the process a bit more and realized rejection isn't a negative thing but a positive one if put into context. It's that reason I wanted to post this letter—to highlight for all of you not falling prey to the excitement or the rejection.
The important lesson here is this: Do not get so excited at the prospect of an agent liking your work that you lose focus on what is important. Kind words are just that—kind words. There is no meaning beyond them and therefore no reason to get excited. At least not yet. After a writer sends out a query, the agent will usually request a partial; a partial, after all, tells the agent a great deal about the story and the writer's ability with the craft. Sending a partial out to an agent, having it read, and receiving word back on it is just one tiny aspect of the process. The rest of the process is finding an agent who loves the entire book, then finding an editor who enjoys the entire book, and then finding a fan base who enjoys the entire book. This is reality, and good word on a partial does not a published writer make.
At the end of this post, I write it as much for me as for you guys. I have to remember to stay focused; I have to remember to not read into anything. Ralph enjoyed the first few chapters, "enough to want to see" more. That word "enough" is the key and it might have been intended on Ralph's part and it might not have been. "Enough" to me sounds like I barely made the cut; we'll see what he thinks of the rest of it.
You may ask, "Well, what about the letter are you happy with?" I'll tell you, and it will probably make most of you laugh. I really enjoyed Ralph's take on my purple prose. Yes, I admit it, I have a problem with purple prose—the kind of writing that is flowery and over the top and too descriptive. He nailed me good with that observance and I can tell Ralph knows exactly what kind of writer I am. With that said, I'm so very happy he said "but that's nothing a little line edit couldn't fix." I've been hoping hoping hoping for an agent who might take the time to highlight those areas in my manuscript that do go over the top; I'm happy to fix every one of them, after all, but need help in identifying them. Ralph gives me hope that he might be someone who can do that for me, or at least put the book in the hands of someone who can.
Overall, I am touched by Ralph getting back to me so fast. I am also pleased that I can still keep writing with a very strong goal in mind—to knock Ralph's socks off!
This post kind of hits on the second one: a means of helping people understand the industry better along with the practice of writing. And this post is a cautionary tale for those of you who will be jumping into querying agents in the future.
I received word back from Ralph Vicinanza, the agent for Terry Pratchett, Robert Jordan, Robert J. Sawyer, Robin Hobb, among others, as well as Stephen King's foreign rights agent. He asked for the first four chapters of my book, The Dark Thorn, and I sent them to him a few weeks ago.
Today he wrote:
Shawn - Good chapters, Shawn. Great Prologue! I like the set-up you have here. Intriguing. Sometimes the prose can get a little purple when you're dealing with the beasts and I understand why you're doing that, but that's nothing a little line edit couldn't fix. Anyhow, I'd love to see where this is going so keep sending me chapters as you complete them. I'm not exactly sure how the Graal will fit in with all of this, but I'm hooked enough to want to see. Best, Ralph |
Now, I am thrilled with Ralph's response—not from what he wrote but more with how quickly he got back to me. He took time out of his busy schedule to read little ole' me's first four chapters and that means a lot. Agents like Ralph have a massive workload, and I thank him up and down, left and right, for reading my excerpts and reading them in the time he promised.
I share his note with you, not out of vanity because I am self-actualized enough that I don't discern happiness through other people, but because you should get to see what an agent writes back to a writer. Most of the responses I have received from agents have been like this one -- both the good aspects of the writing accompanied with the areas of development needed.
With that said and after a quick read, you'd think I have a great shot at getting an agent, right? Well, remember what I just said in the previous paragraph? I've received notes like Ralph's before. Many times. Sure, it was a different book and I've improved a lot since I wrote Fell Hammer, but all of those replies were similar. Do I have an agent right now, even after such positive words from other agents? No, I don't. This note from Ralph could be one more in a string of them.
Is that fatalistic? Not really, at least I don't think so. It is realistic. It's great getting excited about such compliments but not great when they don't bloom into fruition. It took me about three rejections to overcome the feeling of being rejected; for some people they never get over the response to receiving a rejection. I've since embraced the process a bit more and realized rejection isn't a negative thing but a positive one if put into context. It's that reason I wanted to post this letter—to highlight for all of you not falling prey to the excitement or the rejection.
The important lesson here is this: Do not get so excited at the prospect of an agent liking your work that you lose focus on what is important. Kind words are just that—kind words. There is no meaning beyond them and therefore no reason to get excited. At least not yet. After a writer sends out a query, the agent will usually request a partial; a partial, after all, tells the agent a great deal about the story and the writer's ability with the craft. Sending a partial out to an agent, having it read, and receiving word back on it is just one tiny aspect of the process. The rest of the process is finding an agent who loves the entire book, then finding an editor who enjoys the entire book, and then finding a fan base who enjoys the entire book. This is reality, and good word on a partial does not a published writer make.
At the end of this post, I write it as much for me as for you guys. I have to remember to stay focused; I have to remember to not read into anything. Ralph enjoyed the first few chapters, "enough to want to see" more. That word "enough" is the key and it might have been intended on Ralph's part and it might not have been. "Enough" to me sounds like I barely made the cut; we'll see what he thinks of the rest of it.
You may ask, "Well, what about the letter are you happy with?" I'll tell you, and it will probably make most of you laugh. I really enjoyed Ralph's take on my purple prose. Yes, I admit it, I have a problem with purple prose—the kind of writing that is flowery and over the top and too descriptive. He nailed me good with that observance and I can tell Ralph knows exactly what kind of writer I am. With that said, I'm so very happy he said "but that's nothing a little line edit couldn't fix." I've been hoping hoping hoping for an agent who might take the time to highlight those areas in my manuscript that do go over the top; I'm happy to fix every one of them, after all, but need help in identifying them. Ralph gives me hope that he might be someone who can do that for me, or at least put the book in the hands of someone who can.
Overall, I am touched by Ralph getting back to me so fast. I am also pleased that I can still keep writing with a very strong goal in mind—to knock Ralph's socks off!
Labels: Craft, The Dark Thorn
posted by Shawn C. Speakman | 1:37 PM
32 Comments:
Shawn,
Congrats! On the letter, sure, but most importantly on the new goals and the fact that you have the interest of an agent who seems to know how you write and how to help it.
I think your attitude about the whole thing is awesome, and as a fellow fledgling writer, I really appreciate your showing us this and sharing your past experiences. I think it helps more than you could know.
Hopefully, one day I will get my own rejection letter and these words of advice right here will help me get over that feeling of rejection.
However, you'd think, after so much rejection in high school, that it would be no big thing. ;)
IncubusJax: High school rejection! Bah! Tis a pittance to having the child of your mind denied life! haha
You'll be fine with rejection though. Most people are after a few times. Thank you for your kind words; I hope you have a really good experience with submission.
I started to say how I submit all the time, but then I started to think about how that sounded, and so I decided not to say it at all. Now, I don't have anything catchy to say. ;)
So instead:
{Witty reply goes here}
Cheers!
Mark
IncubusJax: Sounds like you were not, in fact, as rejected in high school as you made it sound. Either that, or you made up for it in college! Submission has its place, like all things. *grins*
Shawn,
I think the letter is good news. I can understand why you are being cautious about getting your hopes up. Remember there are a lot of people who will never even see a letter that says 'hooked enough.' If nothing else, i hope the letter gives you a bit more steam to press forward.
Cheers,
Chris
Shawn-
That's cool about the letter. I've been a way for awhile, so when did you change the name of the books?
Chris: That's exactly what the letter has given me. Steam. There are times when I write where it is like pulling teeth; other times, it comes easily. All writers have both of those moments. Right now, partially due to that letter, I can feel it is coming easily. I have a feeling I might write in a flurry for a few weeks, at least up to Chapter 20. Once I get to Chapter 20 I can relax a bit since the rest of the book is going to be easy to write; it is the climax part of the book that requires no real setup -- the setup has already been done!
I'm very excited to get there, but I still have some seeds that I need to plant over the next few chapters to make it work.
Azhev: I changed the titles a few days ago. It came about mostly due to discussions I had with Aidan and Sean on this very blog, about marketability and what is needed for a good title. I realized The Dagda King was too aloof, too much was unknown about the middle noun, that it just wouldn't work. I also decided that I'd like the title of the book to reflect its protagonist and not its antagonist. The Dark Thorn seems like the perfect title to appease marketers as well as be a fitting title for the book.
Awesome news! I can't wait to read more of this book. And with the way you've been talking about these later chapters being better I think he'll definitely get 'more hooked'.
By the way, I know you're busy but the RSS feed here doesn't seem to work for me. I plugged it into the feed validator and it said that the & symbol was messing it up or something. Just thought I'd mention it. I really don't know if I'm the only one having this problem so if anyone else can see something different..?
coord: I plead complete ignorance when it comes to RSS feeds. I do admit I haven't updated the feed at all since Chapter 6; I just had no idea anyone was using it.
So, to test it out, today I updated the feed with some news. I guess tell me if it works or not! Then we'll go from there.
Today Ralph asked me to supply him with my outline. He knows I am into the middle of the book and he wants to make sure I am on the right track.
How cool is that? To me, getting some guidance, is very cool!
That's great that he wants to see the outline! I bet it has something to do with his interest in Graal. Sounds like a step in the right direction, though. You've definitely kept his interest!
And about the feed: Thanks for taking a look! It still didn't work but when I tried editing it by taking out the & symbol and the latest post it suddenly worked (you can check out my edits here http://mackez.com/rssfeed.xml sorry for posting your stuff again but I'll take it down as soon as you see it). I really don't know much about RSS feeds so I just run it through feedvalidator.org to find any errors I make.
Scratch that, I didn't have to remove the first post at all. Just removing the & symbol fixed it. Weird.
coord: Okay, I've taken out the ampersand. I wonder if it will work now. haha
haha It does now. Thanks!
Yah! The feeds work. I've wondered about that for a while, but figured it was just something flaky with Firefox.
Didn't test it in IE cause I never use it so what' the point eh?
Shawn,
Congrats on your query process so far. But one question: how did you get a query to Ralph Vicinanza since he seems to be listed as not accepting queries right now? I ask because I, too, am in the query process at this time.
robertwalker: Author Robin Hobb, one of my good friends, is agented by Ralph. She has remained interested in my writing progression and I've kept her in the loop with my rejections and how events have played out. She knew what I had written in my first book and knew I was writing an urban fantasy for my second.
In February, Ralph asked Robin if she knew anyone writing good urban fantasy. Based on what Del Rey said about my first effort, Robin gave Ralph my name. He contacted me via email about what I've been working on. That lucky, and that simple.
The importance of networking.
At any rate, I gave Ralph my first four chapters around April 20th. That week, Ralph had received four or five manuscripts from clients that demanded his attention first and he told me it would be a few weeks before he could get to them. But he surprised me when he got to reading my chapters and critiquing them far faster than I thought possible.
He then asked for the outline. And that's where we stand.
I highly recommend querying Matt Bialer, Robin Rue, Merilee Heifetz, James Frenkel, or John Salbersack. All of these agents got back to me relatively quickly, and they all accept queries. Good luck and nice to meet you! Hope you stick around to talk writing with us! Out of curiosity, how did you find this website?
Hi Shawn. To be honest, I have been doing so much work/research on the publishing process, I can't remember where I found you! I think it might have been on one of the writer's forums? Where else do you hang out online?
Interesting story about getting the intro to Ralph. And his comments seem supportive. I look forward to hearing how things progress with that.
Thanks for the agent recs. I already have a query in to Marrilee Heifetz, though I am not expecting much, since I am a new author and Writers House is such a biggie. I also queried Matt Bialer who sent a rejection. Not surprising, again, considering his big clients and the reputation of the agency. I think it would be a lot to expect them to take on a new author in today's climate, regardless of how good the book is. I will look up those other agents, though.
My novel is finished, and now I am in the (huge and sometimes overwhelming) process of seeking publication. I have learned a lot so far, and look forward to connecting with other writers online. I could go on and on about this, but back when I was a pro musician, it was either the gatekeepers let you in at the right time or nothing. Things are truly changing now, and it is so wonderful to be able to connect with other writers and book lovers, all over the world. I just love the new opportunities to get work out there, which is, after all, the whole point of all this--to reach readers who would enjoy and connect with your work. I've just begun a myspace account (thanks for adding me, btw!) and look forward to meeting more and more people.
This isn't an ad, but if you're at all interested, please feel free to check out my first chapter, which is up on my website.
Cheers, and I look forward to staying in touch!
robertwalker: I agree with most of what you said except the part about Matt Bialer and big time agents.
This is only my experience with Matt and big time agents, so take it with a grain of salt. But those big name agents are the ones who excel at finding new talent. They crave it, especially someone like Matt, who loves working with new writers to develop their craft. After all, Pat Rothfuss didn't have a sale before The Name of the Wind, but Matt took him on, worked with Pat for 18 months to hone the book, and then sold it for a semi-large advance and now tons of book sales.
In short, what I am trying to get at is don't rationalize that agents are too busy to find new talent simply because they didn't like your book. They aren't that busy. They find new talent all the time. It all depends on if what you wrote tickles their funny bone, so to speak. If they like what you've written, you are in, no matter how busy they are. If they don't like it, they reject it. Agents are like anyone else; they have opinions. The trick is finding the agent who loves your work and wants to champion it.
Shawn,
Your take on big name agents is heartening, to be sure. I just want to be clear, though, I wasn't rationalizing, but rather being humble and gracious. From all the research I've done, it is my impression that many big time agents will be a bit more wary of taking on a first-time novelist, if only because of the current market trends and pressures. Whether it is because they didn't like my query/idea or some other reason, I guess I was simply trying to express that I understood and that there are no hard feelings.
But, to be fair, we can't really say they didn't like my book, because they didn't read my book. Either they or one of their interns rejected my query, which isn't the same thing. Who knows why? Trust me, I would prefer for my actual manuscript to be accepted or rejected on its merit, but we all know that it often doesn't even get that far. Mostly, our queries are rejected, or our lack of previous publication, or the current state of the market, etc. Again, there are no hard feelings from my end. Having been in the music biz as a musician for over 12 years, I understand how it works.
Hey, not everything will appeal to everyone, and agents are people, too. I have already had a partial request from Shawna McCarthy, another big name in fantasy, so she must have seen something she liked, even if Matt didn't. Will it go anywhere? Only time will tell. But, if not, it's not the end of the world.
The key, and the struggle, is to get the actual work, the words of the book, in front of the eyes of someone who might connect with it and be in a position to champion it within the industry. We all know how difficult that can be, how frustrating the query process can be. I have always believed that if the work is great, then one's perseverance and determination will go a long way towards it eventually being discovered.
As we all know, those who succeed are those who persevere.
robertwalker: You are right with most of what you just said. The agents in question didn't read your book because they didn't ask for it.
Most every agent out there has an assistant who does the sifting through query letters to find what the agent is looking for -- that diamond in the proverbial rough. Usually an assistant can see if a query letter is written well. If it is, then they look at content to see if it is something that might pique the agent's interest. That "something of interest" is usually hinged on what is selling in the market.
So for instance, if your book is epic fantasy, your query isn't going to make it past the assistant right now. There is an over-saturation of epic fantasy on the market and publishers aren't looking for it. Since publishers aren't looking for it, agents aren't going to find it.
That's just one element that we writers have stacked against us -- what is selling and what isn't selling dictates what happens with our book.
Here is another problem though, for most new writers. Most new writers have no idea how to write an evocative and strong query letter. They believe the book to be the most important thing they will write but they'd be wrong -- the query is, hands down. A strong query shows the agent or agent's assistant that you can write in a concise manner, and the content must intrigue and mesmerize to get the "call back."
I've literally read dozens and dozens of query letters from people who write me out of the blue asking for advice, and I can say out of all of them that not one was a worthy effort. That's saying something.
Now, I'm not suggesting your query letter is one of those. Don't think that at all. I am merely pointing out there are a lot of variables that go into what gets read in this business -- some of those variables we can control, others we can't.
When you talk about perseverance, I couldn't agree with you more. Look at Stephen R. Donaldson. Sure, it was a different situation then, but he still sent his book to all of the publishers available at the time, A through Z, and he came back around again from A-D when Del Rey finally said they'd publish it. Someone at Del Rey rejected it the first time, and on the second pass through is when Lester del Rey saw it and read it. It just goes to show. That still happens all of the time -- it happened to Jim Butcher, believe it or not.
A short story here: One of the assistants at Writers House loved Fell Hammer, so much she begged for it to be her first book to try and pitch to publishers. The assistant's agent just didn't think it was a wise decision due to the market. That's how hard all of this can be.
Anyway, perhaps you should query Colleen Lindsay? She's bee in the business a long time as a publicist, she reads fantasy, and she just started agenting. Google her, send a query her way, and see what happens. Good luck!
Shawn,
Colleen is on my list to be queried soon. Thanks for the suggestion, though. She's got a pretty good blog going as well for those who don't know. I'm always on the look-out for a new potentially right agent to query. (Maybe we should compare lists, Shawn... Feel free to send me a message on myspace.)
I do want to say that while I am sure you communicate with many amateur writers who don't really know what they're doing, be assured, I'm not one of them. :)
I couldn't agree more with all you said. So true about the query letter. I worked hard on mine and believe it to be quite strong. I'd be happy to send it to you if you don't believe me!
But, anyway, yes, all of the examples you mentioned illustrated my point, which is that "getting published" is not necessarily a matter of how good a book is. Sometimes the stars align to land a good book on the right person's desk at the right time, again, as some of your examples illustrate. This is not to say that one should just toss their work in the air and hope it lands in the right place. First and foremost, one should focus on creating great work. But, just like in the music or film industries (and one must never forget that this is an industry), there are many factors involved that have absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the work. That can be incredibly frustrating and disheartening to those people out there creating quality work that has little chance of being widely shared because of "market trends." Believe me, I know. It takes a great deal of strength and experience to get to the point where any industry doesn't discourage you to the point of becoming bitter and giving up.
I feel no bitterness about any of this, for many reasons. Quite the contrary. I feel that there are now more opportunities than ever to reach out to people without relying on the industry's standard publicity channels. For example, now we have a time when we can find readers, fellow writers and community online. It's pretty awesome, to be honest. The motivation for my work, including this novel, is not to "get published"--I don't have that ego-need--but rather to get my work to those people out there for whom it would be like what reading Terry Brooks was for me as a kid. Or what George R. R. Martin is for young adults and adult adults today. We still live in a time when doing so requires being picked up by a publisher with major distribution. Hence our search for agents and so on. Fine with me. As long as my integrity and the integrity of the work is not compromised, I am willing to put the work in when it comes to the system. It is what it is.
Anyway, Shawn, I've been thinking of taking this conversation out of this "comments" section, but at the same time, I think it could be valuable to those who are interested in the process.
Cheers!
robertwalker: Yeah, I should probably create a tiny forum for this website. These kind of topics disappear eventually, and many of the same questions arise that have already been answered by those who frequent the blog. Hmm. I'll think about it. I've been so focused on getting this book done that I've forgotten to finish the redesign on the rest of the site -- pages exist but just not in the right format.
The best advice I could give you, Robert, if you have a strong query letter, is to save enough money to visit any number of writers retreats or conferences -- the big ones, not the small ones. At venues like that you'll meet strong writers, agents and editors in person, and that makes it very easy to build a relationship and get one's work read. Writing a good book and being tenacious are about the only weapons we have to get a book published -- other than networking.
If you've been doing this, great. That should be helping. But the only reason Song of the Fell Hammer was read so many times is because I've met and befriended the right people. Anyone can do that, honestly, and sadly it's a piece of advice few people are ready to make the sacrifices for.
And no, I don't need to read your query letter. haha I've given up giving advice, at least until my book is finished. You can pay my copywriter and professional editor a few bucks to have her ook it over if you like -- she loves stuff like that.
Ha! No, that's okay. :) I'm pretty happy with it. I really said that to you as a joke.
Best of luck finishing your book.
First congrats, you're lucky he even spoke to you (I'd read he was not taking clients anymore)-- and what a nice letter he sent you. I've been querying agents and editors on various novel length steampunk projects for the last thirteen years, and have never gotten such a response--in fact, mine usually read: "I apologize for the form letter, but we get deluged with mail...as to your material I'm afraid I'll pass..." Or the ever-frustrating hand-scribbled "Not for me." Or even worse *no* response at all, despite following all the rules, and included SASE and sufficient postage. :( Now I'm kidding myself, I know, even trying to get into this society that's closed tighter than Skull and Bones, since I do not have such illustrious friends as yourself, but I also know my skill and style have improved considerably in the thirteen years I've been trying to get published, so who knows why the "I'll pass" form letters keep coming in? Honestly, I suspect luck has more to do with it than anything, and you have been extremely lucky. The rest of us shmucks just have to keep battering at those doors and hope for the best--or give up, and I'm not about to do that. :)
Good luck to you.
Laure: First, thank you for the well wishes. It's a difficult road to go down but it's always nice to have people wishing me luck; it makes me realize how hard I should be working! :)
If you haven't already, try Chris Schluep at Del Rey Books. He is the editor for China Mieville.
How to contact him? Chris attends most of the larger conventions throughout the year. He is always at the Del Rey booth talking to people walking by. He is a super nice guy who you could talk to about your steampunk project.
The doors didn't just open to me, that's for sure. It took 9 years of hard work to get them open. It takes sweaty networking and that means paying the money to go to conventions, writers retreats, and writing conferences. Most people do not do this and sadly cringe at the idea.
I don't know if you've done that or not, but building a relationship with an agent or editor at one of those venues is the best way to break in. In the office, a query letter can be ignored; in person, charm and intelligence can go a long way to an earnest friendship -- a friendship that could get your writing read.
So stick in there! As Emperor Palpatine said to the newly donned Darth Vader, "Do what must be done. Do not hesitate. Show no mercy."
Thanks for the advice, Chris. Time, much more so than money (although I must admit that's a factor, too) for such things as attending a conference, is extremely limited for me...for reasons, I'm sure you understand, would not be prudent for me to get into in such a public forum. But I'll look into him. Maybe my luck will, like yours, finally turn around.
By the way, I love that you used Bran in your book; I've been studying the Bran myths for five years now (I have a whole section on my site about them :) *wonders aloud if you've seen it in the past?*) And I know how hard the info on him is to come by. It's nice to see his name somewhere else, than just on my own site. :) Keep up the good work.
Laure: I can't stress enough for you to go to a convention. Save the money. Make the time. Everyone can do that if they truly want to. It will open doors to you that would otherwise remain closed. :)
As for the name Bran, in preparation for this project I had to go back and re-read all of the initial writings for King Arthur, lots of British Isles history and Vatican history, and finally some of the Celtic stories like The Mabinogi. Ironically, before I read that last one, I went onto a Celtic names website and the name Bran (meaning raven) fits my character perfectly so I decided to use it. It was only afterward that I read the Bran in The Mabinogi and saw how I accidentally gave the name more literary meaning. Fun stuff.
Hey Shawn,
Well, I'll try, but like I said, it's not so much the money as I just don't have the leisure to travel too far from home right now. C'est la vie. We'll see...
Thanks for the insight.
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